and there are others that come through other avenues. so i think what the ones that are -- those of us like me that were born here in this country, i think what happens is that we see the other -- our fellow latinos as our cousins, brothers, grandparents, and so we see them as part of an extended family. i think what is simplistic about this is to try to make this clear distinction between latinos born in the united states and those who arrived from latin american countries. it just doesn't work that way. so what we have is, we have, for example, 4 million american citizen children, papers don't have papers. we have hundreds of thousands of american citizens, husbands, whose wives don't have papers. and, in other words, it's a very mixed community. >> bill: the reason i bring this up is, there is never going to be an acceptance of the republic party by hispanics who want open immigration, everybody comes.